Dan,I know we went through this before but Jack makes the challenge below. This is why I firmly tell folks to stay out of theology school lest they be as Jesus said, Matthew 18:6“But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”Jack also shows many an example of why I advise stearing clear of KJV for doctrine. It’s mideaval language, not relevant and only useful for getting into the concordance, and then that would be contingent that your not using some of the many KJV errors for a search.With Jack, you have to assume you already believe the error and then fight vigorously to defend it, which blinds you to the obvious even if you’ve stated it.I highlight some of the points below.On 20 Feb 2013 at 14:36, dan wrote:> Never heard this put any better.> Fantastic article. Jack’s put a lot of time into eternal> salvation.>> ——– Original message ——–> Subject: Wednesday, February 20, 2013> From: Omega Letter Daily Intelligence Briefing> <firstname.lastname@example.org>> To:
> CC:>> _____>> The Omega Letter Intelligence Digest> Vol: 137 Issue: 20 – Wednesday, February 20, 2013> _____>> The Performer>> “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this> mystery,> lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part> is> happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”> (Romans 11:25)>> The “fulness of the Gentiles” — that’s the key phrase here. The> word> translated into English as ‘fulness’ is from the Greek word,> “pleroma”> which means, “completion, what fills (as in contents) what is filled> (as> container, performance or period) that which is put in to fill up,> full,> fulness.”>> So, blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the completion of> the> Gentiles have come in. Clearly, the reference here is to the> complete> number of Gentiles to be saved. And so also follows, just as> clearly,> that there IS a completed number of Gentiles to be saved.>> Eternal security is a hugely significant doctrinal point that most> Christians either miss altogether or refuse to acknowledge. Let’s> look> at why they refuse to acknowledge it, first.First error.>> If there is a finite number of Gentiles that signify “pleroma” or> completion, then it follows that God knows how many, and who they> are.> That freaks out Christians that cry “Calvinist” at the mere mention> of> predestination.Um, Jack, what does predestinedation have to do with the full number of Gentiles??? You’ve got to stretch to tie it together. Why would God play games? Why not just say, “when Jack Jr prays the prayer of repentence the fullness is complete, then boom, rapture time.”?( I add here a note on predestination due to abuse of scriptures. Two of the most misused texts are in Romans and Ephesians. If you read Ephesians 1, in context, you will see that Paul in his lauding of chosen and predestined is talking about himself and the other Christian Jews, his people. He then goes on to say, “and you, also ( the Ephesians)” making a break from the predestination talk.Then, in Romans, instead of talking “key verses” (now that’s the key) you need to read the entirety of Romans 7-11 and you will find that he, again, is talking about the Jew, not the Gentile. The promise comes down through the Jews, predestined that the Savior of the world would be through them. It has nothing to do with God looking into the future and saying, ” well George and Sam are gonna make it, so I’ll make sure it happens.”
>> Because John Calvin included ‘predestination’ as one of the Five> Points> of Calvinism does NOT mean it is a “Calvinist” doctrine. It is a> Bible> doctrine that Calvin happened to get right, kinda.>> There are plenty of Arminians (the opposite of Calvinism) that> deny> predestination and all other points of Calvinism, and yet believe> in> Bible prophecy. But if there is a difference between Bible prophecy> and> predestination, it is too fine a distinction for me to be able to> see.Jack, predestination is a man made attribution, prophecy is a Holy Spirit foretelling of God’s plans for the world and it’s people. So, saying that eternal security or predestination is wrong is part of Arminianism does not make Arminianism right, it’s just one of the things they got right, kinda.>> In Bible prophecy, God predicts what certain men will do at a> certain> time, and because He is omniscient (all-knowing), we can be certain> that> the prophesied event will unfold precisely as foretold, or,> predestined.Um, Jack, the event is predestined not the player. Nebuchadnezer repented so the event played out to his son. Or the corollory, Josiah humbled himself and yet Israel was destroyed.>> Predestination simply means that God already knows what YOU will do> at a> certain time, but predestination is rejected because it somehow> interferes with free will.No, Jack. Predestination is that an event was set in place, not by choice of man. Foreknowledge is knowing in advance what choice you will take. There is a difference. If I have foreknowledge that taking one more step past a cliff will have a very sudden ending does not predestine me to take that step, or anyone for that matter.>> So when it comes to everybody doing what God says they must at a> certain> time, that’s prophecy and therefore, doctrinally correct. When it> comes> down to God predicting the fate of an individual¸ that’s Calvinism,> and> therefore somehow, not Bible doctrine.>> Even though both describe precisely the same thing!No they don’t. You confuse predicting with predestining.pre·dictverb \pri-ˈdikt\Definition of PREDICTtransitive verb: to declare or indicate in advance; especially : foretell on the basis of observation, experience, or scientific reasonpre·des·tinetransitive verb \(ˌ)prē-ˈdes-tən\Definition of PREDESTINE: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand; especially : predestinate 1proph·e·cynoun \ˈprä-fə-sē\plural proph·e·cies also proph·e·siesDefinition of PROPHECY1: an inspired utterance of a prophet2: the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose3: a prediction of something to comeBut God’s prophecy is of that which was predetermined before creation.>> Arminianism rejects predestination in favor of doctrines that give> all> the power to the people, by denying that power to God. Opponents> of> predestination say that because God knows what you will do on a> certain> day, it affects your free will.Jack, Jack, predestination, yes, foreknowledge, no. And you really need to get off the Arminian kick, it appears to be the only logic that holds water for you. After 40 years, it is only recently that I’ve become acquainted with the term. It’s been my own scriptural study that rejects OSAS.>> That might be true if you were God and knew what you would do in> the> future, but since you aren’t, it has no effect whatsoever on your> free> will. The decisions you make are your own — the fact God knew what> they> would be is irrelevant to free will.>> The word ‘predestinate’ is used four times by the New Testament;> RomansThis often misused text could very well, in context, be referencing the Apostles themselves or those chosen to be leaders. In particular, v31-39. Paul speaks very clearly that nothing can separate us from the love of God and that’s very true. God has loved His creation from the beginning, before the flood and after the flood and that’s why He provided a way. BUT, God is sovreign and just, and though He loves you, He can and will send some of His creation to the pit. Not unlike the day I had to send my 18 year old son, who I love dearly, out the door. And to this day he rejects me, but I don’t love him any less.> Ephesians1:5> EphesiansAgain, in context, “in order that we, who were first to hope in in Christ..” suggests the Apostles because then he sates, ” and you, also, were included in Christ when you heard the truth” suggests something AFTER hearing, in otherwords not predestined. Note that this text also goes on to talk about the Holy Spirit seal, which many misinterpret to mean our conscience, the knowledge of good and evil, which is actually something we are born with. All men know the difference between good and evil, but it’s not a seal of salvation.>> It is translated from the Greek word, “proorizo” which means, “to> limit> in advance, predetermine, determine before, ordain” or simply,> “predestinate”.>> To summarize before moving on, you were predestinated to be> conformed to> the image of His Son before the world began. The Bible says so.>> “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be> conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn> among> many brethren.” ( Romans 8:29>> The Bible says that you were elected to be saved.No it doesn’t Jack, you do.>> “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through> sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the> blood> of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” ( 1> Peter>> Do you see the three separate elements here? We are 1) elected> according> to God’s foreknowledge, then we were 2) sanctified (hagiasmos-> purification by a purifier) because of 3) the obedience of Jesus> Christ> Who shed His Blood for you.>> What does the word “elect” mean? In Greek, it is eklektos and it> means,> “select, by implication, favorite: — chosen, elect.” So it means,> selected, or chosen.Again, he’s speaking to leaders in the church in his greeting. If you go further into 2 Peter 1:1-11 you’ll find Peter greet, “To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:”.And when you go further Peter gives us the promise of power to avoid evil and tells us to, “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.” . This is an action text, a to do, or as Paul says elsewhere, ” working our salvation”.But is salvation gained by works? NO!!!! But, there is much to be said about not working our way backward to our loss, “8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.”Jack’s discussion falls apart here, “10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” There appears to be a very real back door, a way out.Note the words,”make your calling and election sure”. But remember, nothing can separate us from the love of God.>> On to the next question: When were we chosen by God to be saved?>> “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not> according to our works, but according to His own purpose and> grace,> which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” ( 2> Timothy>> God saved us, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His OWN> PURPOSE, and given to the elect through Christ BEFORE THE WORLD> BEGAN.Right Jack, this is where the Arminians went south, and so do you.>> Where are you in this narrative? Are you the hero of this story? Are> you> saved because you had an epiphany and turned from your wicked ways> and> now live a life of total dedication and purity to Christ? Did YOU do> it?>> Or were you saved because you trusted Christ’s promise you are saved> by> grace through faith and by trusting that He can keep you saved by> sending His Holy Spirit as your hagiasmos purification agent?>> Did YOU make the decision for Christ based on your own best judgment> of> what is best for you? Or are you saved because the Bible says God> elected you for salvation before the world began?Careful, Jack, you may, then be predestined by foreknowledge to reject the call and turn from the faith like Charles Templeton or Ray Boltz.>> The doctrine of eternal security hangs entirely on those> distinctions.Here you are finally correct, the doctrine as opposed to the truth.>> Assessment:>> If you saved yourself by your actions or conduct, then it follows> that> you can lose your salvation by your actions or conduct. If you> were> saved by grace through faith, then your actions and conduct are> irrelevant.>> The Bible gives seven distinct and unassailable proofs that> salvation is> an eternal condition that begins when we are saved, not when we die.> If> you are saved now, you are saved forever, because you are not who> you> were anymore.The doctrinal proof is that the GIFT is secure, everlasting. Christ died once, for all, that is unassailable. As I’ve shown to this point Jacks misuse of scriptures is quite assailable.>> At the point of salvation, seven distinct and immutable changes> took> place. At the moment you were saved, you were forever;>> 1. Converted — your life is irrevocably turned around. ( Acts> 3:19To follow Jack on this one, then we become sinless. Keep it context Jack.> 2. Sanctified — purified by the indwelling Holy Spirit ( 1> Corinthians 1:2> )Hmm, Jack, read on don’t stop here. How about 1 Corinthians 3:16,17, “16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.” First thought that comes to mind is suicide, will OSAS save this person?> 3. Reconciled – we are at peace with the Father ( 2 Corinthians> 4. Regenerated — or given new life ( 1 Peter 1:23> 5. Redeemed — purchased, or bought back for a price ( 1 Peter> 1:18> 6. Adopted — made a permanent part of God’s forever family (> Romans 8:15 <http://www.omegaletter.com/bible/bible.asp?B=45&C=8#15>Jack, Jack, stay in context. Romans 8:9-17, “9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, “Abba,[b] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”If we live according to the sinful nature we die, period.But of this adoption:Romans 8:23-25,”23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”According to this, that adoption has NOT occurred, but we wait eagerly for it until we die. But as Revelation indicates, unless we endure to the end, we can lose it.> )> 7. Justified — declared righteous by God. ( Romans 3:28> Corinthians 5:21>> From the very first second one comes to faith in Christ, all this> becomes equally true for every believing child of God. They are what> are> called “positional truths” because they are unrelated to changing> human> emotions and feelings.This is another way of saying this is our hard and fast doctrine, handed down through time, well, at least the last few hundred years for those who follow that doctrine.>> If your salvation was conditional on your performance, consider> what> that means. It means that God must reverse all these actions in> the> lives of uncounted millions every single day. Then, assuming you> get> born again (again) He must change it back (again.)>> Some Christians believe that at the moment of salvation, God only> forgives the sins committed to that point. From that perspective, it> is> only logical that a person could lose his salvation.>> But look at the logic. It also means that a Christian, once saved,> can> never sin again. HuH????? If he does and loses his salvation, he would have> to be> born again. (Again).>> But that not only violates Scripture, it violates Christ Himself.>> “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and> have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the> Holy> Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the> world> to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto> repentance;> seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him> to> an open shame. ( Hebrews 6:4-6>> Let’s look at what it doesn’t say here, first. It doesn’t say it> is> impossible to fall away. What it says is impossible is to be renewed> to> repentance. IMPOSSIBLE!For once you’ve read the scripture correctly, Jack. But then you lose it again in the following because you skip the context. Don’t forget Hebrews 6:7-8 “7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”Jack you twist the scriptures and put yourself in real danger of the judgements of false teachers. Hebrews specifically warns what happens if you turn and walk away. It says specifically it can happen and that it is impossible to turn back. The second part of the text says what happens to those that accept the gift, yet continue in, or turn back to sinful lives.>> The reason it is impossible is because it would put the Lord to> open> shame. Why?>> “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins> forever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth> expecting> till His enemies be made His footstool.” ( Hebrews 10:12-13>> He offered ONE sacrifice for sins, FOREVER, and then He sat down.> Why is> that significant? Because He was done. It was finished.>> It is impossible to justify a person twice. Why? Because it would> mean> that His sacrifice wasn’t good enough the first time. The Scriptures> say> differently. Note it carefully:>> “For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are> sanctified.” ( Hebrews 10:14>> “Aha!” you say. “But what about the Bible’s command requiring us> to> confess our sins daily?”>> “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us> our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ( 1 John> 1:9>> Confession is necessary for us to maintain communion with Christ,> but> NOT to maintain union with Christ. Union with Christ is a function> of> the indwelling Holy Spirit.>> Communion with Christ is what we have when we pray.nJack, address this, is one in prayer while lying with someone else’s wife, or watching porn on the Internet, or lying in a court room so that you can get more money?>> Nowhere does this verse link confession with salvation. It links> confession with cleansing, not regenerating.>> I’ve noticed that those who discredit eternal security as a false> doctrine often avoid giving specific answers to questions about> their> position.Not so Jack, you ignore specifics as has been shown above.>> For example, if one can sin oneself out of God’s grip, which sin is> the> soul-killer? Is it a particular sin? A pattern of sin? How much sin?> How> often?Jack, you’re sounding very catholic, with the 7 deadly sins. That would be God’s call, whichever breaks a man’s spirit, even if it’s stealing someone’s pencil.>> How can an individual know he has lost his salvation? If there is a> way> of knowing, is there a way of recovering it? To get saved, one> must> believe and have faith. How does one believe again? How does one> have> faith — again?There is no way to know, especially to those living in sin because they’ve disconnected from the Holy Spirit.>> Are there any Scriptural examples of saved Christians who lost> their> salvation and then recovered it?Good question Jack, but you skip the other obvious question about losing it. Simon Majus comes to mind, that Acts says specifically that he believed and was baptized and wanted to buy the baptism of the Holy Spirit, oops sorry, transgressed some of your other doctrinal error, yet he might his earthly demise came while levitating himself for Nero in the Collesium when he came crashing to the ground. Or Ananias and Sapphira who were struck dead in the middle of a lie.>> My email box is eager to receive concrete answers to any of these> questions. But what I anticipate in reply are different questions,> like,> “Oh yeah? What about this verse?”, instead of answers to the ones> I> posed.>> In hand-to-hand combat, there are certain target points each> combatant> must protect. The Apostle Paul used hand-to-hand combat as an> analogy> for how believers should prepare for spiritual combat:>> “Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and> having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with> the> preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield> of> faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of> the> wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the> Spirit,> which is the word of God:” ( Ephesians 6:14-17>> First, the truth. Note the anatomical analogy Paul uses. In battle,> that> is an extremely vulnerable target. Strike a serious blow there, and> the> victim is rendered helpless.>> Secondly, the ‘breastplate’ of righteousness. The torso is the> biggest> and easiest target to strike, but it is also the easiest to armor.> If> one is covered by the righteousness of Christ, the heart is> protected.>> Thirdly, the feet. A battle tactic commonly employed in Paul’s day> was> to sow the battlefield with nails and other sharp objects. Foot> soldiers> with injured feet are not very effective. If one is fully prepared> (‘shod’) with the Gospel, one can engage the enemy uncrippled.>> Fourth, Paul says, “Above all, taking the shield of faith,> wherewith ye> shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.” ( v16> is> certain of his standing before God, the enemy’s whispering> campaign> falls on deaf ears.>> Finally, Paul says to, “take the helmet of salvation, and the Sword> of> the Spirit, which is the Word of God:”>> The ‘helmet of salvation’. In battle, the most effective way to> take an> enemy out is a head shot. If the enemy can convince you that your> salvation is in doubt, he has sidelined you as a threat.>> Without truth, the righteousness of Christ, knowledge of the> Gospel,> faith in its promises, and the certain knowledge of your standing> before> Christ, the Christian’s only offensive weapon, “the sword of the> Spirit,> which is the Word of God” is pretty much useless.>> And without the Sword of the Spirit, the Christian is defeated> before he> even steps onto the field. Opponents of the doctrine of eternal> security> sometimes deride it as the ‘doctrine of demons’.>> Scripture — and logic say exactly the opposite.>> Why would ‘demons’ promote a doctrine that renders the Christian> invulnerable in battle, rather than the one that guarantees the> Christian’s defeat — since all Christians sin?>> Bottom line: If eternal security is a false doctrine, then we are> defeated, and even Jesus can’t save us from ourselves.>> “Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a> good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (> Philippians 1:6> )>> If He began it, and He will perform it, then I can be confident.> Because> if it is up to me, well . . . let’s just say I know me better than> to> count on me to perform it.>> I’ve already let me down, lots of times. I’d be a fool to trust me> with> anything this important again.Jack, this becomes the bottom line, and I’m assuming this is Jack Kinsella, not Jack Kelly. When I approach OSAS and point out specific figures the come back is that, well, the individual wasn’t sincere in the first place. That’s disconcerting, then, given your unassailable evidence, do you then call Paul a liar, in “our confidence, therefore” because individuals such as Charles Templeton, Ray Boltz, Amy Grant you would decry as not having actually made a saving, redemptive, regenerative, doctrinal theology words ad nauseam type prayer. How do you know then? I suppose you’ll say, by their fruits we will know them. Okay, so they bore good fruit for quite some time, yet turned. How do I know, then, that my prayer of repentance and salvation was fruitful? You create more questions than answers. In my 40 years I’ve never attended doctrinal college, seminary, etc to ground any doctrine as a wedge, just comprehensive, Barean study of the scriptures. You, on the other hand, come with doctrine and then twist the scriptures and manipulative words to defend your position. Your last challenge is laughable. No one has died and come back to report on those that have gone on ahead of us, and you should be ashamed to take that stretch.To read you and Jack Kelly, with your positions that it is impossible to lose your salvation, I get this vision of a mountain of souls just growing and growing, “until the fullness of Gentiles is reached” with Jesus standing in the way of any that want to get away. True, salvation doesn’t come by earning it, buying it or arguing it, it is a free gift from God. But you can’t argue against living a life worthy of it because as the scriptures are clear that you can and will fall away if you don’t. If “regeneration”, as you put it, then we would be pure, living an effortless salvation. Even Jesus points out that you clean out the house, but unless you put something else in there (my inclusion) the demon comes back with 7 more and the condition is worse than the first. Your salvation is something that you can ultimately reject.With your hard core pushing of OSAS you are actually contributing to the apostate church. According to you, later on, when the going gets tough, and it’s easier to give in to sin, it’s okay, my salvation is secure, I’ll just receive a smaller reward in heaven and I’m good with that. Again, Charles Templeton, was without a doubt saved, but then allowed doubts to creep in until they took over and he became an advocate for Satan, I won’t know his condition until the end, but the scriptures give us a good indication. Ray Boltz, again, no doubts about his conviction, but OSAS gives him an out, he can live with his boyfriend now and feel confident of his salvation. Even Amy Grant, who married the boyfriend she left her husband for and continues to live in adultery can feel confident that her salvation is intact because of OSAS.Perhaps you need to reflect a little bit more closely to your responsibility and the burden of it along with the penalties of wrong teaching. Are you the one Jesus refers to in “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” If you are misleading and plunging people to the abyss what have you got left?Dan Long>> _____>> Archives of past issues of The Omega Letter Intelligence Digest> plus> many other Omega Letter member features can be found at:> _____>> The Omega Letter is published daily by Jack Kinsella and exists> through> subscriptions <http://www.omegaletter.com/subscribe> and free> will> contributions. <http://www.omegaletter.com/subscribe/contribute.asp>> ©> _____>>
I have grave concerns with the continued spread of this “false gospel” . Do I know anyone who lost their salvation? I can’t say. I’m still here, earthbound, I don’t know the very heart of anyone, actually, like God, and He is the ultimate judge. But the scriptures are very clear, not foggy and twisted like they were presented by Jack.
Have you been heading down the wrong road? Is your faith being challenged? Are the pleasures of the world hacking at you, trying to draw you in? Then it’s time to turn back. I don’t know where the line of demarcation is, but why play the risk? God is calling you back, desiring your return into the kingdom. Take the time now, Jesus hasn’t left you, you’re the one who walked away. He knows your name, talk to Him and let Him lead you back in, repent and turn away from those things that lure. No one says it’s easy, but not only is it required, but it is so well worth it.